I believe in free will. If there was a plan on who was going to heaven or hell,
free will wouldn't matter.
-This is why omniscience seems impossible from a certain perspective (if you
believe in free will). Since god knows everything, he would not be able to make
an outcome without knowing it beforehand. So any world he made would already
have a determined outcome. So praying was indeed what you were meant to do if
you do it. Just my opinion anyways.
Quote: I don't know but I'd hate to
hear that God has a 'plan' because then that would mean that all good and bad
things occur through him. We don't have any control.
if we pray n believe there would be good things happened but it doesnt mean we
control or change God's plan; God knows at the end we would pray. for every hard
works there would be good result ^^
Quote by SulibresI have a question: If
God has a set "divine" plan, isn't it pointless to pray since he knows
and probably won't alter the outcome anyway?
I don't believe its pointless to pray, but I think the plan can change while the
outcome can/might be the same. I believe in free will. If there was a plan on
who was going to heaven or hell, free will wouldn't matter. ((insert open can of
worms >here<))
Quote by DarkRoseofHellAnd no I
haven't seen the human behavior experiment, mainly cause human behavior varies
person to person and generally lots of people love to just group em all together
in one big tree or some other type of stupid thing and blah blah blah, point is,
no point in experimenting behaviors, theres always going to be something
different. It may be "similar", it won't be the
same.
You know, that's what I thought but this documentary
makes me think otherwise. Still, I agree that psychological responses vary but
the similarities are intriguing. It's worth a watch. One of the three cases it
discusses is the Kitty Genovese murder and the bystander effect. Look it up!
Quote by SulibresI have a question: If
God has a set "divine" plan, isn't it pointless to pray since he knows
and probably won't alter the outcome anyway?
I don't know but
I'd hate to hear that God has a 'plan' because then that would mean that all
good and bad things occur through him. We don't have any control. That's scary.
Quote: He said there's no such
thing as 'true' altruism where someone would do something good for someone else
without wanting anything in return. We always have motives for everything. The
fact that we feel good after we do something good for another makes us untrue in
our 'altruism'...
Lol, I had the same thought on altruism, sort of posted that in the
"community service" thing, or whatever.
Yoth, you forgot
Those with monkeys: fear going crazy, :P (I am bored...)
And no I haven't seen the human behavior experiment, mainly cause human behavior
varies person to person and generally lots of people love to just group em all
together in one big tree or some other type of stupid thing and blah blah blah,
point is, no point in experimenting behaviors, theres always going to be
something different. It may be "similar", it won't be the same. /wrist
Those with a religion:
the fear of hell, general misunderstanding, and retribution (from those who
refuse to try to understand).
Those without a religion:
the fear of hell (in the form of constant condemnation), general
misunderstanding, and retribution (from those who refuse to try to
understand).
...we're all human, religious beliefs or not...
I think I've said this before, but I spoke awhile back with my animal behavior
professor about altruism... which to me does relate with our own self-reasonings
for what we do and why and what we fear or love. He said there's no such thing
as 'true' altruism where someone would do something good for someone else
without wanting anything in return. We always have motives for everything. The
fact that we feel good after we do something good for another makes us untrue in
our 'altruism'... since we would be nice to someone else because it makes us
feel good too. I feel like I'm being redundant, but if you really think about
it... no person is nice for no reason. To
me, that kind of sucks.
BTW, if you want to know more about the word and what others think about the
topic of morality, virtue, and altruism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism
. They discuss there the altruism in behavior having a conscience or
unconscience non-altrusitic motivation.... leading me to almost want to believe
that real "love" doesn't exist in the scientific community's belief
system.
I just thought I'd put that out there since it was related to the topic at hand.
Heaven and hell. You could always look at it as a threat or a reward. It's like
a mother disciplining a child. Good child = kiss and a hug. Bad child = a
spanking. Heaven and hell are just more permanent.
I think religion just makes people happier in a fulfilling way. That or a way to
control the masses.
Seriously...My father is all about religion...He says he is blessed...I don't
believe in it...I guess you can say Im the opposite of him... but how were we
created? all these stories...should we believe in them? Like god created
us...well no one has seen or felt god...and no one has come back from the dead
telling us what happens. Why was such a thing like heaven and hell created? We
all disappear in the end...right?
Quote by yothsothgoth@ProgramZERO
I didn't know the pope had said anything. I thought it was weird the other day
when I was told the pope didn't eat in front of others... like he thinks he's a
higher power or something. I'm not Catholic, so I don't really care much about
or for the pope. I also personally get really peeved when people think that when
one religious figurehead says something rude to others of a different faith,
they think everyone thinks the same way. Its way too common when big-wig
religious figures say crap like that. You'd think if he was chosen by God to lead in some fashion,
he'd have more tact in what he says to who... not to say that he wasn't chosen
by God... just that he needs more tact when speaking to
others.
Well, many believe that the pope is infallible which
is quite a claim. He has millions of followers so when he says that Islam is
evil, which has a membership rivaling Christianity, you're going to run into
problems. He needs to tell people to follow the ten commandments (because too
many are ignoring them) and button his lip... And start jailing some pedophiles
instead of moving them around.
Quote: The movie sounds pretty
interesting to me, I think I would like to watch that movie... see what he has
to say. ^^
I don't know... I've read that one of the
criticisms of Evolution (or "Darwinism" as the movie refers to it) is
partially to blame for the holocaust. Makes me roll my eyes but I'll still watch
it.
Quote: In my opinion, I've always
thought that the sudden development of life, our perfect orbit, the moon with
our perfect tides, the fact that we are intelligent life forms, the fact of
gravity and how it works to balance out our existance, the existance of all the
elements in their specific mollecular structures and their unique qualities
necessicery for life, DNA and its complexity, the fact that the sun's distance
away from us is near perfect and it controls our seasons and weather patterns
with its lack or surplus of sunspots, the awesome electromagnetic field that
protects us from the solar radiation, the atmosphere being able to sustain life,
...etc. To me, if we're a fluke... if we're here by accident... if we're here by
random... then, wow... I'm really lucky to be here and now and to have been
borne into existance in a random act of scientific improbability from the
primordial sludge on this ethereal plane we call earth.
Sudden? Wasn't exactly sudden. The Earth is *thinks*
4,300,000,000 years old...?
Also, our orbit and perfect tides really don't mean much when you consider the
fact that life evolved around these tides and the seasons so they are perfect in
the sense that life evolved around the orbit and the tides, not the other way
around. Some life has been found in what one would think to be an unfavorable
environment.
Additionally, how many planets are in the universe?........... Many, many
planets....... I'm plenty sure some would be suited for life. It's birth of the
fittest enough to harbor life... planet that is...
And an almost perfect distance from the sun could suggest intelligent design if
you ignore the countless planets that are too close or too far. It seems more
random than planned.
Given, life is a very complex and mysterious mechanism that we have yet to
unlock and for these Intelligent Design proponents to say what they say, is an
unsubstantiated claim that really has no scientific application. A giant bearded
man in the sky or flying spaghetti monster are equally as possible with the
'evidence' they've provided.
The thing is...I have problems with my mother here...I declare myself as
nonreligious, as I feel that I can be a good person without religion...but my
mom won't just take it...she insisted that a person must have religion to be
good...
It's just annoying...
Yeah, it's rough to admit it to people.
I don't want to tell my coworkers because I don't know how they may react...
I'll tell them with time and if they ask me, otherwise it is an unimportant
matter. Many of my friends know about it and didn't care and others I have found
have a problem with it which they simply shelve away... Sigh...
The thing is...I have problems with my mother here...I declare myself as
nonreligious, as I feel that I can be a good person without religion...but my
mom won't just take it...she insisted that a person must have religion to be
good...
It's just annoying...
I don't know what kind of a person your mother is, but I'm sure that she means
well in the grand scheme of things. I think you can be a good person without
religion. My brother is kind of in the same situation... mom is so upset that
he's not a believer like us. He is a decent person and tries to tell her that he
doesn't have to have religion (or at least ours) to be happy or a good person.
Mom is mostly upset because how we believe - our faith tells us that if you
don't believe in God, you don't get to heaven. That's what mom wants is for her
family to be with her in the afterlife and since we believe that way, she feels
hurt. Does that make sense? She means well and in her point of view and through
her beliefs, her son is condemning himself to hell. I wonder if your mom feels
like that towards you.
The thing is...I have problems with my mother here...I declare myself as
nonreligious, as I feel that I can be a good person without religion...but my
mom won't just take it...she insisted that a person must have religion to be
good...
@onyhow
My younger brother hates organized religion. That's been a conflict in my
immediate family. My parents can't stand it. He believes its corrupted by the
leaders and the followers. I suppose I don't mind... I pretty much agree with
how he feels about the world and religion, but he hates the mass
"worship" and all it entails.
@ProgramZERO
I didn't know the pope had said anything. I thought it was weird the other day
when I was told the pope didn't eat in front of others... like he thinks he's a
higher power or something. I'm not Catholic, so I don't really care much about
or for the pope. I also personally get really peeved when people think that when
one religious figurehead says something rude to others of a different faith,
they think everyone thinks the same way. Its way too common when big-wig
religious figures say crap like that. You'd think if he was chosen by God to lead in some fashion,
he'd have more tact in what he says to who... not to say that he wasn't chosen
by God... just that he needs more tact when speaking to others.
The movie sounds pretty interesting to me, I think I would like to watch that
movie... see what he has to say. ^^
In my opinion, I've always thought that the sudden development of life, our
perfect orbit, the moon with our perfect tides, the fact that we are intelligent
life forms, the fact of gravity and how it works to balance out our existance,
the existance of all the elements in their specific mollecular structures and
their unique qualities necessicery for life, DNA and its complexity, the fact
that the sun's distance away from us is near perfect and it controls our seasons
and weather patterns with its lack or surplus of sunspots, the awesome
electromagnetic field that protects us from the solar radiation, the atmosphere
being able to sustain life, ...etc. To me, if we're a fluke... if we're here by
accident... if we're here by random... then, wow... I'm really lucky to be here
and now and to have been borne into existance in a random act of scientific
improbability from the primordial sludge on this ethereal plane we call earth.
summer holiday?
no wonder everyone's so quiet when i've promised to be active back this month. omg....my school's reopening next week
I think that goes for all the groups here on MT.
Its vacation time... and everyone's out having fun... I think.
Its dead in here
What good is prayer then?
I believe in free will. If there was a plan on who was going to heaven or hell, free will wouldn't matter.
-This is why omniscience seems impossible from a certain perspective (if you believe in free will). Since god knows everything, he would not be able to make an outcome without knowing it beforehand. So any world he made would already have a determined outcome. So praying was indeed what you were meant to do if you do it. Just my opinion anyways.
excuse moi..
mind to interrupt..
if we pray n believe there would be good things happened but it doesnt mean we control or change God's plan; God knows at the end we would pray. for every hard works there would be good result ^^
I don't believe its pointless to pray, but I think the plan can change while the outcome can/might be the same. I believe in free will. If there was a plan on who was going to heaven or hell, free will wouldn't matter. ((insert open can of worms >here<))
You know, that's what I thought but this documentary makes me think otherwise. Still, I agree that psychological responses vary but the similarities are intriguing. It's worth a watch. One of the three cases it discusses is the Kitty Genovese murder and the bystander effect. Look it up!
I don't know but I'd hate to hear that God has a 'plan' because then that would mean that all good and bad things occur through him. We don't have any control. That's scary.
I have a question: If God has a set "divine" plan, isn't it pointless to pray since he knows and probably won't alter the outcome anyway?
Lol, I had the same thought on altruism, sort of posted that in the "community service" thing, or whatever.
Yoth, you forgot
Those with monkeys: fear going crazy, :P (I am bored...)
And no I haven't seen the human behavior experiment, mainly cause human behavior varies person to person and generally lots of people love to just group em all together in one big tree or some other type of stupid thing and blah blah blah, point is, no point in experimenting behaviors, theres always going to be something different. It may be "similar", it won't be the same. /wrist
Speaking of psychology, anyone here seen 'The Human Behavior Experiments'? I'm sure you could find it on YouTube or something...
I think many people live in fear.
Those with a religion:
the fear of hell, general misunderstanding, and retribution (from those who refuse to try to understand).
Those without a religion:
the fear of hell (in the form of constant condemnation), general misunderstanding, and retribution (from those who refuse to try to understand).
...we're all human, religious beliefs or not...
I think I've said this before, but I spoke awhile back with my animal behavior professor about altruism... which to me does relate with our own self-reasonings for what we do and why and what we fear or love. He said there's no such thing as 'true' altruism where someone would do something good for someone else without wanting anything in return. We always have motives for everything. The fact that we feel good after we do something good for another makes us untrue in our 'altruism'... since we would be nice to someone else because it makes us feel good too. I feel like I'm being redundant, but if you really think about it... no person is nice for no reason.
To
me, that kind of sucks.
BTW, if you want to know more about the word and what others think about the topic of morality, virtue, and altruism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism . They discuss there the altruism in behavior having a conscience or unconscience non-altrusitic motivation.... leading me to almost want to believe that real "love" doesn't exist in the scientific community's belief system.
I just thought I'd put that out there since it was related to the topic at hand.
If they act good of fear of going to hell...then they are not really good person, isn't it?
And it's true though....
Its easier to make someone do something out of fear than do something out of their heart.
Heaven and hell. You could always look at it as a threat or a reward. It's like a mother disciplining a child. Good child = kiss and a hug. Bad child = a spanking. Heaven and hell are just more permanent.
I think religion just makes people happier in a fulfilling way. That or a way to control the masses.
Seriously...My father is all about religion...He says he is blessed...I don't believe in it...I guess you can say Im the opposite of him... but how were we created? all these stories...should we believe in them? Like god created us...well no one has seen or felt god...and no one has come back from the dead telling us what happens. Why was such a thing like heaven and hell created? We all disappear in the end...right?
wow...a bunch of stuff i wrote...
Well, many believe that the pope is infallible which is quite a claim. He has millions of followers so when he says that Islam is evil, which has a membership rivaling Christianity, you're going to run into problems. He needs to tell people to follow the ten commandments (because too many are ignoring them) and button his lip... And start jailing some pedophiles instead of moving them around.
I don't know... I've read that one of the criticisms of Evolution (or "Darwinism" as the movie refers to it) is partially to blame for the holocaust. Makes me roll my eyes but I'll still watch it.
Sudden? Wasn't exactly sudden. The Earth is *thinks* 4,300,000,000 years old...?
Also, our orbit and perfect tides really don't mean much when you consider the fact that life evolved around these tides and the seasons so they are perfect in the sense that life evolved around the orbit and the tides, not the other way around. Some life has been found in what one would think to be an unfavorable environment.
Additionally, how many planets are in the universe?........... Many, many planets....... I'm plenty sure some would be suited for life. It's birth of the fittest enough to harbor life... planet that is...
And an almost perfect distance from the sun could suggest intelligent design if you ignore the countless planets that are too close or too far. It seems more random than planned.
Given, life is a very complex and mysterious mechanism that we have yet to unlock and for these Intelligent Design proponents to say what they say, is an unsubstantiated claim that really has no scientific application. A giant bearded man in the sky or flying spaghetti monster are equally as possible with the 'evidence' they've provided.
Yeah, it's rough to admit it to people. I don't want to tell my coworkers because I don't know how they may react... I'll tell them with time and if they ask me, otherwise it is an unimportant matter. Many of my friends know about it and didn't care and others I have found have a problem with it which they simply shelve away... Sigh...
Oooo, thats going to be harsh, but most people have to let go of their sons/daughters anyways.
merged: 04-25-2008 ~ 08:25am
Not harsh in a bad way, lol.
I don't know what kind of a person your mother is, but I'm sure that she means well in the grand scheme of things. I think you can be a good person without religion. My brother is kind of in the same situation... mom is so upset that he's not a believer like us. He is a decent person and tries to tell her that he doesn't have to have religion (or at least ours) to be happy or a good person. Mom is mostly upset because how we believe - our faith tells us that if you don't believe in God, you don't get to heaven. That's what mom wants is for her family to be with her in the afterlife and since we believe that way, she feels hurt. Does that make sense? She means well and in her point of view and through her beliefs, her son is condemning himself to hell. I wonder if your mom feels like that towards you.
Thanks for the response...
The thing is...I have problems with my mother here...I declare myself as nonreligious, as I feel that I can be a good person without religion...but my mom won't just take it...she insisted that a person must have religion to be good...
It's just annoying...
@onyhow
My younger brother hates organized religion. That's been a conflict in my immediate family. My parents can't stand it. He believes its corrupted by the leaders and the followers. I suppose I don't mind... I pretty much agree with how he feels about the world and religion, but he hates the mass "worship" and all it entails.
@ProgramZERO
You'd think if he was chosen by God to lead in some fashion,
he'd have more tact in what he says to who... not to say that he wasn't chosen
by God... just that he needs more tact when speaking to others.
I didn't know the pope had said anything. I thought it was weird the other day when I was told the pope didn't eat in front of others... like he thinks he's a higher power or something. I'm not Catholic, so I don't really care much about or for the pope. I also personally get really peeved when people think that when one religious figurehead says something rude to others of a different faith, they think everyone thinks the same way. Its way too common when big-wig religious figures say crap like that.
The movie sounds pretty interesting to me, I think I would like to watch that movie... see what he has to say. ^^
In my opinion, I've always thought that the sudden development of life, our perfect orbit, the moon with our perfect tides, the fact that we are intelligent life forms, the fact of gravity and how it works to balance out our existance, the existance of all the elements in their specific mollecular structures and their unique qualities necessicery for life, DNA and its complexity, the fact that the sun's distance away from us is near perfect and it controls our seasons and weather patterns with its lack or surplus of sunspots, the awesome electromagnetic field that protects us from the solar radiation, the atmosphere being able to sustain life, ...etc. To me, if we're a fluke... if we're here by accident... if we're here by random... then, wow... I'm really lucky to be here and now and to have been borne into existance in a random act of scientific improbability from the primordial sludge on this ethereal plane we call earth.
Yes, my sister is quite religious and likes to determine what music I can and can't listen to.
I don't think anyone noticed this below:
Wish the pope had exercised some restraint... BTW, what of his visit?
And what of the movie Expelled, narrated by Ben Stein? Have you seen the commercial?
Nope, but I got superstitious conflicts, which are RETARDED...
Anyone here have religious conflict within your family?